Founders Focus

034: Remastered: Interview with Rick Doblin, Alex Grey & Allyson Grey at Burning Man 2016 by Joe

Do we have a treat for you.

To welcome our new listeners, we present you a re-mastered special edition of the episode we recorded live at Burning Man on August 31, 2016, which features three pioneers and key drivers in the movement to mainstream psychedelic medicine.

Special thanks to Rod for the audio engineering!

Special note for Patreon supporters: you will get a special before-the-show "opening conversation". Check

Burning Man 2016

We had the great pleasure and honor to speak with three pioneers and key drivers in the movement to mainstream psychedelic medicine:

Alex Grey & Allyson Grey, co-founders of CoSM, the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors (

Rick Doblin, founder and executive director of MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (

We thank deeply all three of our esteemed guests for their time and generosity of spirit.

We’d also like to thank Dr. Bronner’s ReFOAMation Village for their hospitality and Alex & Allyson for graciously hosting the recording in their RV.


  • Alex & Allyson Grey’s take on the state of the movement to mainstream psychedelics

  • Has non-violence slowed our progress?

  • Alex & Allyson’s $2000 fine for cannabis possession upon entering Burning Man

  • Alex mentions Roland Griffiths’ reprisal of Walter Pahnke’s Good Friday Experiment at Johns Hopkins University: Hopkins Scientists Show Hallucinogen In Mushrooms Creates Universal “Mystical” Experience

  • Rick Doblin discusses the improved relationship with Law Enforcement and the Burning Man organization including better integration of the Zendo Project at Burning Man 2016

  • Rick quotes Einstein: “There’s no conflict between science and religion. There’s a conflict between bad science and bad religion.”

  • Rick talks about how he sees psychedelics being integrated into society in 25 years

  • Rick discusses the “beautiful breakup” he had while on MDA

  • Rick compares MDA to MDMA

  • Allyson discusses her personal experiences with MDA and MDMA

  • The idea of patient self-titration

  • Alex, Allyson, and Rick discuss their milestones this year: 20 years since the founding of CoSM and 30 years since the founding of MAPS

  • Rick describes building a handball court at New College of Florida, overlooking the nudist colony where his girlfriend was lifeguarding

  • Rick discusses the first responders and veterans enrolled in the MDMA for PTSD study (“not just for hippies at Burning Man”)

  • Cannabis as a neuroprotective, anti-tumor agent (and it makes you feel better too)

  • Carl Sagan’s friendship with Lester Grinspoon

  • Carl Sagan’s secret use of cannabis for 40 years

  • Psychedelics and schizophrenia

  • Rick’s idea to create a “drug license” system

  • Time to “come out of the psychedelic closet”

  • MAPS organizes Global Psychedelic Dinners to encourage “coming out” about our psychedelic use



Thank you so much for listening to Entheogen and for supporting us on Patreon and for telling your friends.

031: Dr. Julie Holland by Joe

This is Entheogen. Talk about tools for generating the divine within.

Today is June 6, 2016, and we are talking with Dr. Julie Holland, psychopharmacologist, psychiatrist, and best-selling author of several books.

Find the notes and links for this and other episodes at Sign up to receive an email when we release a new episode. Follow us @EntheogenShow on Twitter and like EntheogenShow on FaceBook. Thanks for listening.


  • Julie’s origin story: how did she get interested in this area of research

  • Julie took MDMA with Rick Doblin on the last day it was legal: June 30th, 1985

  • “Cancer of Yang” – Jeremy Wolff’s phrase (Julie’s husband)

  • Vaginal administration of cannabis to avoid the liver from edible ingestion, 11-OH-THC

  • Edibles: Julie emphasizes the need to wait two hours before re-evaluating dosage

  • Overmedication of society

    • “Do you ever overeat and then feel bad about it?” Big pharma’s answer: strong, long-lasting amphetamine daily.

  • Medical and Recreational Entheogens

    • “Recreation is therapeutic”

  • THC, CBD and Terpenes

  • Some people don’t want to get high from their medicine.

  • Munchies mitigation tip: don’t start eating.

  • Punishment doesn’t work with addiction

  • Pornography and the “new normal”: no pubic hair vs. “very bushy” 70’s

Julie’s Books:

020: Interview with Earth and Fire Erowid, second half by Joe

This is Entheogen. Talk about tools for generating the divine within.

Today is December 9, 2015 and we are very excited to feature a special interview. This is the second half.

It is our great pleasure and honor to welcome Earth and Fire Erowid!


  • Kevin and Earth reminisce about Burning Man 2007, the “Eclipse/Man-Burn-Early Year”

  • What was Burning Man like in 1995?

  • Fire tells the story of a Burning Man purist in 1995 who had stopped going since there were people there she didn’t know

  • “radical self-reliance” and community reliance

  • Earth asks Kevin: “did you carry out your own poop?”

  • When they moved to California in 1994, Earth worked remotely for his dad’s tech company; what was working remotely like in 1994?

  • Earth started New College in Sarasota, FL, the same year Rick Doblin graduated; Fire joined the next year. (Rick’s wild time at New College in the ‘80’s described in Acid Test by Tom Shroder)

  • Earth and Fire discuss their friendship with Sasha and Ann Shulgin and the famous Friday night dinners

  • Erowid becoming an educational nonprofit in 2008

  • Erowid’s Library

Support Erowid!

And be sure to catch the first half of the interview.

019: Interview with Earth and Fire Erowid, first half by Joe

This is Entheogen. Talk about tools for generating the divine within.

Today is December 9, 2015 and we are very excited to feature a special interview. This is the first half.

It is our great pleasure and honor to welcome Earth and Fire Erowid!

For context, Joe reads a quote from Michael Horowitz, personal archivist for Timothy Leary:

“Powerful descriptive writing about personal drug experiences mimics the effects of the drugs themselves. Reading Aleister Crowley on how hashish aided his meditation, or Mezz Mezzrow on playing in a jazz band on marijuana, or Gordon and Valentina Wasson’s otherworldly mushroom journey in a curandera’s hut in Mexico, or Anais Nin describing how LSD turned her body into liquid gold can be mildly psychoactive in itself. Especially so if you’d had your own prior experiences. We also collected books and studied the rituals of the peyote and mushroom cults, the history of the opium wars and laughing gas parties. We learned that drug literature is endless, and drug-taking was one of the earliest and most common activities of mankind.” - Michael Horowitz, from an interview about the Tim Leary Archives


  • What role did the “mildly psychoactive” effect Horowitz attributed to some drug literature play in the founding of Erowid?
  • Feeling it before taking it – hours (or days) before
  • Imagination, memory, DMT, neurotransmitters, hallucinations
  • lucid dreaming
  • Oneirogens (dream generators); list of Oneirogenic substances on Wikipedia
  • dream pillows
  • Calea zacatechichi (the "dream herb")
  • the physical expression of one’s intention, e.g. the taking of a substance, can be just as powerful as the substance itself
  • What is it like having a New Yorker reporter in your home for three days?
  • Reflecting on Emily Witt’s profile of Erowid from inside the mirrored bubble
  • Kevin preaches: “drug education about marijuana was the gateway drug itself”
  • What could responsible drug education in school look like? Abstinence, fear-based approaches are the norm. What could be the alternatives for young people?
  • Earth introduces the concept of electroceuticals
  • Brad is hopeful about the psychedelic research renaissance
  • Special thanks to Earth and Fire Erowid for their tireless efforts for over 20 years, and huge thanks to Erowid’s noble crew
  • Erowid Experience Vaults: edited, curated alternative to “wild west” internet forums like; other contemporaries:,
  • statistics about trip reports submitted, triaged, reviewed, and posted
  • Earth clarifies something in the New Yorker article: “we are in fact ‘the weirdos among the straights and the straights among the weirdos’.”
  • Fire live-edits the Entheogens page on Erowid to add LSD after our observation


  • Earth and Fire helped 17 year-old Brad avoid jail time
  • Earth and Fire helped Kevin get through high school and college
  • Joe got Erowid blocked from the network at his corporate job


009: Founder Focus – Dr. Stanislav Grof by Joe

Recorded on March 16, 2015

This is Entheogen: three human beings discussing generating the divine within while still being human beings.  In this episode, recorded on March 16, 2015, we continue our Founder Focus series and discuss Stanislav Grof.


- Grof began studying LSD in 1956 when Sandoz shipped a big box of LSD-25 ampules, with a mysterious description of the history of its discovery by Albert Hofmann, and offering two suggested avenues of research: first, to induce a experimental state of psychosis in normal people, and secondly as an unconventional educational tool, to induce this state in the therapist to better understand the "psychotic" state. Grof had been feeling dissatisfied with modern psychology and lack of results, costs in time, energy, etc., and the Sandoz box and invitation came at just the right time.

- He also agreed to have his brainwaves driven as a participant in another avenue of research that was taking place, which involved stereoscopic light – which, combined with the LSD, elicited an overwhelming experience of cosmic consciousness, and a sense of becoming everything there was.

- Grof discusses the correlation between the workings of the brain and consciousness, but points out there is no proof that the brain creates consciousness. His first psychedelic experience brought him to a state of superconsciousness that led him to understand that consciousness was a property of reality that can be experienced by humankind, but was not created by the brain.

- In psychiatry, these states are Altered States are considered pathologic. Grof realized we needed a new word and coined Holotropic: Holos, wholeness; tropic, movement toward something.

- Grof writes: The term “altered states of consciousness” commonly used by mainstream clinicians and theoreticians is not appropriate, because of its one-sided emphasis on the distortion or impairment of the “correct way” of experiencing oneself and the world. (In colloquial English and in veterinary jargon, the term “alter” is used to signify castration of family dogs and cats). Even the somewhat better term “non-ordinary states of consciousness” is too general, since it includes a wide range of conditions that are not relevant for the subject of this paper. Here belong trivial deliria caused by infectious diseases, tumors, abuse of alcohol, or circulatory and degenerative diseases of the brain. These alterations of consciousness are associated with disorientation, impairment of intellectual functions, and subsequent amnesia.

- Grof describes two modes of consciousness: hylotropic referring to "the normal, everyday experience of consensus reality" and holotropic, which is moving toward wholeness (e.g. meditative, mystical, psychedelic experiences).

- Grof developed breathing techniques (Holotropic Breathwork) as a successor to the use of psychedelic drugs, when psychedelics encountered legal difficulty in the 1960's.


- Beyond Awakening Series by Terry Patten (search for Grof interview)

The Revision and Re-Enchantment of Psychology: The Legacy of Half a Century of Consciousness Research by Stanislav Grof, M.D.

- Subjective Experiences During the LSD Training Session, a trip report by Stan Grof from 1970

Food Fighter, New Yorker article about John Mackey, CEO of Whole Foods, which mentions his therapeutic session of holotropic breathing with Grof

- Mind States IV conference talks